rachelmills: Mess-o-potamia

RachelMills (

rachelmills) wrote,
@ 2005-08-14 19:55:00

Mess-o-potamia
So this is what I understand about Israel, and I could be completely off, but I count on you to set me straight.

So after the whole Hitler, WWII thing the Jews are like "Dude, we need to find a place where people will leave us the f*&% alone" and they look around and hey, what do you know, the sacred lands of the torrah are pretty much vacant and wasting desert, so they're like "Let's go there" and a bunch of them were like, OK! And then a bunch of Muslims saw them turning the barren wasteland into a profitable society, because everyone knows Jews work hard and are pretty savvy businessmen, and they were like "We need a piece of that! We're living in squalor! Besides, uh, that's sacred land for us. Uhhh, that's it! We have a right to it because its sacred land where Abraham did stuff. Yeah." So they thought that if they could just get the Jews off the land, they could take it over and the profits and lifestyle would be theirs, and PS because they are Abraham's children they are entitled.

And so pretty much ever since then they have been trying to oust Jews from the Holy Lands, basically for economic reasons because they mistakenly believe that prosperity comes from Divine sources (OK, maybe somewhat true) but not in the sense of hard work and smarts - God helps those who help themselves, kind of thing. They believe prosperity is from the land which they are entitled to, nevermind that for centuries when they had it, they did nothing with it, and therefore got nothing out of it. The Palestinians don't want to live peaceably with Jews. They want the Jews to die and take all their stuff, kind of like Hitler did.

So there is this conflict which is basically Palestinians trying to spook Jews away with terrorism, and Jews fighting back the best they know how. Palestinians have jobs and things in Israel, in Jewish businesses, but that's not enough. They want to own all the businesses, because again, business acumen doesn't come from Harvard, it comes from Allah, and Allah has done so well for Muslims, taking a completely advanced civilization at the time of Muhammed to a complete and utter standstill.

So today Jews evacuated Gaza as a concession to Palestine. And I heard them talking today on NPR about it. The Jewish side saying Stop with the terrorism and we'll talk further, and the Palestinian side saying, No, we're completely disorganized and can't tell our side what to do... what we really need now is more stuff especially financial concessions and then we'll see about kindly not bombing busses. And the Jews throwing their hands up saying You see what we have to deal with? Ay-yi-yi.

F%&(ing build your own businesses, farms and economy then. What do you need the Jews for? Create, build, educate, THINK for yourselves. Oh, right, Allah doesn't teach that, does he? Apparently Allah teaches bus bombings and destruction. Nice. Let me come right over and convert.

Anyway... I'm probably waaaay off base here, so please help me understand, cause really I don't. This is my Jay-walking synopsis, my very casual gleanings. Enlighten me. But please leave the political correctness at the door. I'm not racist myself but I'm not naive enough to not realize other cultures (especially middle eastern ones) very much are.

Fire at will... Please begin commentary with your rating from 1-10 of how well I understand the situation, 10 being the best, then follow with explanation.

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jlaux42
2005-08-14 11:20 pm UTC (link)

My understanding is that there were a bunch of Palestinians living in Palestine (many of whom were Christians, which is a dirty little secret that's seldom mentioned, and also Muslims) when the UN, for whatever reason, decided to give a lot of their land to the Jewish People, who had recently fallen on hard times in Northern Europe. The Jewish People moved in and formed the State of Israel, at which point the Palestinians and some other locals were all like, "yeah, right, UN, whatEVER" and decided to kick them out, with very poor results. Then there were a bunch of wars, which the Israelis won decisively because they were God/The United States's chosen people. Between wars, the Palestinians sometimes blew things up or kidnapped people because they wanted their land back. Then the Israelis tightened the screws on the remaining Palestinians, impoverishing or displacing them until they got really annoyed and started blowing more things up. Somewhere in here, everyone paused for a few minutes to get their picture taken with President Clinton. Then the Israelis responded by tightening the screws further, and knocking over a bunch of buildings. The Palestinians responded by blowing things up A LOT, and also throwing rocks. The Israelis responded by assassinating Palestinian leaders with rockets fired from gunships, conveniently bypassing that pesky arrest and trial business. The Palestinians responded by... Ad nauseum.

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	Excellent summary (Anonymous) 2005-09-20 04:26 pm UTC (link)
	I don't need to read the other responses, because I see you've set Rachel nicely straight with this stupendous summary! Oh, and a great avatar too (the stapler). Kisses! - Susan Hogarth (Reply to this)(Parent)

darkknight9
2005-08-15 12:33 am UTC (link)

7

The folks living in the vicinity of the "holy lands" have always been perpetual whipping boys. And their "can't do" attitude shows it.

Well, almost. I think an enterprising young arab was found to be selling the concrete to make some of the security fences to Israel.

Israel would have perhaps some fewer problems and/or casualties if their reprisals to any incursion, now or back in the young history of their country, were less devastating. Dudes like Arafat made their bones on the backs of the sheer devastation of some of the Israeli generals.

When dealing with violence, you need to either freeze it with kindness (Gandhi), or you need to nip any resistance in the bud (bomb from low orbit, only way to be sure).

I'm an Orbital laser type guy myself, but I understand its not for everyone.

Perhaps after the pullout Sharon will declare Palestine a free state and nation. Then wait for the first bus bomber who feels disenfranchised from lack of work to blow an Israeli bus and declare war on Palestine.

That's Orbital Laser-ish.....

I like your commentary, don't mind mine, please. Its been a long couple of days. :)
-dk9

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bashow
2005-08-15 01:34 am UTC (link)

I think it's a shame that the Israeli settlers are being forced to leave their land. It's private property that belongs to them, and it's a crime to force them to give it up. If Palestinians want to live there, then let them buy property where it's available, but they have no right to just take it. I also think it to be incredibly naive for some there to think this will help the peace process. There can be no peace between people that have been forced to give up their land to the other group. I believe the end of this conflict has already been revealed, and we're just watching it play out.

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	jeremyarc7 2005-08-15 04:32 am UTC (link)
	Didn't many of the Jewish settlers in Gaza simply move into the houses of Palestinians after the army chased them out of town? From what I've gathered, the Israeli government seized private property and then redistributed it. I could be wrong though. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	bashow 2005-08-15 06:50 pm UTC (link)
	Was the property the Israelis took over land that the Palestinians got through a legitimate market or did they not seize it as well? Since the Babylonians seized the land of Israel, has anyone got it through voluntary exchange? I'm not sure. If not, then how is it anymore jusitified for the Palestinians to have it than the Israelis? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jeremyarc7 2005-08-15 07:25 pm UTC (link)
	If no one is justified, then there's no reason to gripe over the Jewish settlers having to leave. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	bashow 2005-08-15 11:01 pm UTC (link)
	If noone is justified to be there, then there's not reason to gripe if the Israelis stay. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

rachelmills
2005-08-16 06:57 am UTC (link)

Wasn't every piece of dirt fought for at one point? Some pieces of dirt more than others, but hasn't the rule usually been - you get the jerk to leave, its yours. Then they get you to leave, its theirs. We ran the Native Americans off their land, but I can still get title insurance on it, no problem. None of this "Well, we were there first! We had rights to it before you did and then you kicked sand in our faces and made us run and it was unfair unfair unfair! I'm telling!" It's always been - to the victors go the spoils, but that's not respected anymore.

I know exactly why Israel is doing this - political capital. This is so the world can see the Israeli army evicting their OWN PEOPLE to appease the mean nasty Palestinians in a good faith effort towards playing nicely in the sandbox, knowing all the time its not going to change anything, but it WILL justify some good thorough bombing later on.

Hey, we tried, we really did. Did you hear our people wailing as they left everything they built up, JUST as a favor to them?

People have to deal with reality before they can solve this problem. You have to figure out what it is both sides want. From what I can tell, Jews want to make money and not get blown to smithereens while doing it. Muslims want Jews and all infidels to die because we are interfering with the Koran's prediction of Global Islamic Rule.

Do you see how a little perspective changes things? What, short of carpet bombing, will change their unshakeable faith in this worldview?

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	bashow 2005-08-15 11:02 pm UTC (link)
	But I would say the Israelis are justified to be there. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bashow 2005-08-15 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	But I also don't know a lot about it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

this land is whose land?

hoolifan
2005-08-15 06:54 am UTC (link)

The claim of Gaza being 'private property' presupposes that there was some kind of legitimate free-market operation that put it in the settlers' hands. That is not necessarily the case.

This particular block of "private property" was seized militarily from Egypt in 1967 in response to Egypt's attempts to, well, destroy Israel. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that many (if not most) of the settlements that are being evacuated right now were either granted by the Israeli government (again, transfers or property from the military) or are effectively squats.

Again, I may be greatly misinformed on this... feel free to correct me.

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	Re: this land is whose land? emagill 2005-08-15 01:44 pm UTC (link)
	From what I understand, that's absolutely correct. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: this land is whose land? rachelmills 2005-08-15 02:16 pm UTC (link)
	They shoulda just got title insurance, huh? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: this land is whose land? bashow 2005-08-15 06:35 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks for the response. Do you incoming Palestinians then have title to the property given to them? If they get the land not through voluntary exchange but through a forceful grant to them, how is that any different? (Reply to this)(Parent)

emagill
2005-08-15 04:13 am UTC (link)

My understanding is somewhere between 5-8. Anybody who answers higher than 8 is either a liar or a divine being.

I've been spending a lot of time lately studying Islam, so that's the angle I'll use. While the religion really is peaceful and tolerant at its heart (no really, that's actually true; it's not a PC line being thrown about--I was surprised), there is this concept that the world is divided into three types of land: the land of Allah, the land of war, and the random stuff in between. Basically, Islam teaches that, eventually, the entire world will become the land of Allah. The idea is that, since the revealed word (the Quoran) is absolutely true, once people hear it and understand it, they will convert. Over the years, the land of Allah will spread (by peaceful measures) until everybody lives under Allah's law. (Immediately after that comes judgement day.)

The problem is that some of the first lands that came under Islam include what is now Israel (it doesn't matter, from an Islamic point of view, that the Jews had it first). So, when Europe decided to give Israel back to the Jews after WWII, many Muslims saw this as a breech into the land of Allah, an invasion if you will, perpetrated by the Jews and reinforced by Christians. The Quoran says nothing about this sort of thing, but political leaders of the surrounding Arab lands (the ones who walked out of the original agreement which would have given them Palestine at the same time as the Jews were given Israel) used the language of Islam to convince people that outsiders (popularly considered infadels all of the sudden) were trying to destroy the land of Allah with invasion.

Let's make one thing clear. Arab leaders--especially Muslim ones--will not rest until Israel is gone. COMPLETELY gone. Through a bastardization of Islamic ideas, they have convinced a very large population of desperate Muslims (desperate because these same leaders have made them so) that they must fight in this battle between good and evil at all costs. This is how the modern extremist was born.

The people living in Palestine are refugees, not because Israel made them so, but because the surrounding Arab countries refuse to let them leave. To those countries, keeping Palestine poor, desperate, and politically chaotic is the only way to ensure an end to the "Jewish invasion".

As for a solution or a conclusion, I'm not sure there is one. You have two sets of peoples, bound by faithful conviction, that are absolutely determined that they are right and the other set of peoples is wrong, but neither side has the balls (or political capital to spend) to completely annihiliate the other. Then you have international politics, people on the sidelines with a bunch of popcorn and overinflated opinion, just gumming up the works completely. Every attempt at a "peace process" is a joke at best, because neither side will ever truly concede.

Forming a legitimate Palestinian state would accomplish nothing, either. That's not what they really want. Giving them all of Israel might help for about five minutes, but that's not what they really want either. If taken to the absolute extreme, the Islamic militants want nothing short of world domination and the global installation of Islamic law.

But major religions tend to go through these militant, psychopathic periods. Eventually, the Islamic world will become more peaceful again, but I couldn't tell you when that will start to happen.

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rachelmills
2005-08-15 06:04 am UTC (link)

That was fascinating, and the "Lands of Allah" bit seems to clarify a lot. I know they want world domination. That has to be what they want. If it was anything different, they'd have the balls to ask before detonating, but they know what they want is unreasonable and non-negotiable. and I'm referring to any Muslim extremist terrorist attack.

Tragic how a seemingly happy rosy idea of everyone living under "truth" can result in such devastation and destruction.

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emagill
2005-08-15 01:36 pm UTC (link)

Yes, sadly, I agree.

The actual words used in the Muslim faith are dar al-Islam (literally meaning realm of Islam) and dar al-harb (literally meaning realm of war). Back when the religion was first founded, the picture that the region had of the outside world was, accurately, very barbaric and violent, and the original Muslims believed that Islam was a path to creating peace throughout a chaotic and troubled world that had lost its way. It's just one of those ironies of history that such a noble idea would later find itself as the central figure in much of the world's more modern chaos, violence, and barbarism.

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jonojacques
2005-08-15 04:46 am UTC (link)

You actually have a pretty good idea of what's happened. There's one little thing that I think you should also note however. These days, all the Arab countries constantly say they think there should be a "palestinian" state. However, between 1949 (armistice) and 1967 (Six Day War), the "occupied territories" were not under Israeli control. The Gaza Strip was Egyptian controlled and the West Bank was Jordanian controlled. So, why didn't they set up their state back then? And it's not because Egypt/Jordan wouldn't let them, the "palestinians" didn't ask! In 1964 they set up the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation), which spent their time attacking Israel in a futile attempt to destroy it, but the "palestinians" were still not a known people. So, in 1967 in a defensive war, Israel captures the territories, along with the Golan and the Sinai. Say hello to the "palestinians"! Despite the fact that there has never been a cohesive nation of "palestinians", they are now missing their historic "homeland" from which Israel "removed" them. No-one notices the fact that most of them left because the surrounding Arab countries wanted them out the way to have a clear path to "drive the Jews in to the sea". In fact, the Israeli Declaration of Independence invites them to stay in peace and Israel has a substantial Israeli Arab population. Also, no-one notices that almost as many Jews were forced out of Arab countries as the Arabs who left what is now Israel. Those Jews were resettled in Israel, but the "palestinians" have never been allowed to settle in Arab countries properly.
Now let's look at the region. Jordan is 4 times the size of Israel. Jordan has a lower population than Israel. 70% of the Jordanian population are "palestinian". In fact, you could move every "palestinian" in to Jordan, give all the West Bank and Gaza over to Israel to use and Israel (with the territories) would still be 2.5 times more crowded than Jordan. Makes sense, no?
Now lets look at the Arab world. The Arab world comprises 23 countries, covering roughly 11million square kms. Israel is roughly 20,000sqkm. That's 4.25% the size of ONE arab country. The territories are only about 5,000sqkm. That's 1.25% of ONE arab country. And these countries say that everything will be hunky-dory if only Israel would surrender such a comparatively TINY amountof territory to arabs which are actually just the same as the ones in the surrounding countries?
Anyway, isn't Jordan the "palestinian" state? Israel is the "Jewish State" with only an 80% Jewish population, why is Jordan not the "palestinian state" with 70% palestinians? They want the West Bank for a State, have they checked the East Bank?

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polyanarch
2005-08-15 07:22 am UTC (link)

This pretty much nails it on the head.

The "Islamic Fundimentalists" are just like the "Christian Fundimentalists" we have here in the US. Some of them are militant wackos who are racist jack-asses. We have those here in the US too. They are called the KKK and the White Supremists. Unlike here in the US the racist religious fundimentalists in the Islamic world are very powerful. They don't run the show in most places but they have the ear of those who do and they have much influence.

Imagine what it would be like if the KKK where the major 3rd party in the US... Now it is evident why the Israelis have their work cut out defending themselves.

It is only a matter of time before one of these wack-job KKK-islam states gets the bomb and decideds to use it on Israel. They have a saying in the arab middle east. There are many Arab/Muslim states but there is only one Israel. They only need one good shot to destroy Israel and finish the job another KKK-type Religious nut-job (Lutheran-Hitler) started 60-some years ago.

Yeah, the Israelis are a little heavy-handed in thier dealings with their enemies. It doesn't matter how many times they defeat them in their defensive wars -they still keep coming. Can you blame them for trying to protect themselves from Islamic nutballs who care more for killing Jews than their childrens lives who they strap to bombs?

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hoolifan
2005-08-15 07:23 am UTC (link)

So today Jews evacuated Gaza as a concession to Palestine. And I heard them talking today on NPR about it. The Jewish side saying Stop with the terrorism and we'll talk further, and the Palestinian side saying, No, we're completely disorganized and can't tell our side what to do... what we really need now is more stuff especially financial concessions and then we'll see about kindly not bombing busses. And the Jews throwing their hands up saying You see what we have to deal with? Ay-yi-yi.

If all this was truly as simple as a Jewish Side vs. a Palestinian Side (or even a Muslim Side) the fuckin war could have been over generations ago.

This is as much about opportunistic Israeli and Palestinian politicians and religious authorities building careers, and jockeying for wealth and power at the expense of their peoples' real interests, as it is about right and wrong. This is as much about gamesmanship and organized crime and partisanship as it is about Allah or G-d or premillenial dispensationalism or whatever ideologies are in play.

When it comes to US domestic issues, you know and I know that the surface debate is a whole lot of bullshit, because we are familiar with the games the interested parties play, and we have some day-to-day contact with the reality on the ground that tells us the way these issues are represented on the cable networks is not necessarily the way Americans actually think about them.

Reading this I feel like you're taking a the media's reporting on Gaza in particular and Israel/Palestine in general less critically than you probably would a comparable domestic situation. Which is understandable because as noted above we don't have the context to judge those reports with.

Step 1 is to accept that there is no Israeli side or Palestinian side to speak of. There are dominant factions that are usually held out as representatives for each "side" in the media but this is largely mirage (Israel = the Likud govt in most media reports, Palestinians = the PA or Hamas depending on whom you ask). It's as shallow and unproductive to view this conflict in these terms as it is to divide America into Red and Blue.

And also forget about viewing this in terms of property and capitalism. Very little of the situation on the ground was determined by defensible free market operations; almost all was determined through military power, unilateral declarations of colonial forces, or old-style socialism fueled by foreign aid. Whatever BS Tom Friedman is selling in his latest book, there is little culture of independent capitalism to speak of and little basic rule of law in many places that would allow it to develop. You can't judge either party based on their success or failure acclimating to a global economy because almost none of the credit or blame belongs to the parties directly involved.

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	Well said... ciggieposeur 2005-08-16 10:33 am UTC (link)
	Agree nearly 100%. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ciggieposeur
2005-08-16 10:59 am UTC (link)

I'd rate your take a 2, with my own about a 5ish, and only your diety-of-choice scoring higher than 8.

The conflict has little to do with real economics and much to do with political expediency. Israel has American strategic and tactical military support and nuclear weapons, its neighbors do not. Israel's original claim to the land in question is arbitrary; the Palestinians they forcefully drove off were descendants of the original inhabitants of the Biblical Jewish state and had legal title to the land as valid as any other titles in the Western world at the time. The injustice was creating the state of Israel in the first place, now that it's here there is no simple solution for it.

Economically, I would analogize the Gaza pullout to the United States attempting to honor one of the original treaties with a Native American nation. The existing titles are nullified, new titles are granted and given to...who? The "representatives" of the nation? The descendants of the actual inhabitants? Saying those treaties don't count makes the rule of law a sham.

F%&(ing build your own businesses, farms and economy then. What do you need the Jews for? Create, build, educate, THINK for yourselves. Oh, right, Allah doesn't teach that, does he? Apparently Allah teaches bus bombings and destruction. Nice. Let me come right over and convert.

...and now you're being stupid.

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robert_johnson
2005-08-16 12:36 pm UTC (link)

6. Because it's a little inaccurate in the beginning. There were already Jews there before 1948, there were already Arabs there as well.

In 1948 under pressure from previously in place lobbies and holocaust survivors, and feeling quite guilty/complicitous, the west has the UN create Israel. It had been Palestine under the Brits but the future Israelis actually bombed the British into giving up control to the UN. The Palestinian State was supposed to exist alongside of an Israel which was much smaller in the beginning then it is now. It wasn't desert, although it was arid, it wasn't uninhabited. There were arabs and jews aplenty.

As soon as the state of Israel was created the Arabs who bordered it attacked, all together, from all sides. In theory they should have annihilated the Israelis. God is usually on the side of the bigger battalions. Israel won. So Israel gets to exist a while longer.

With military and financial support from the west the Israeli's have beaten every enemy that has come against them. The Arab nations didn't just attack in 1948. They did it again in 1956, 1967, and 1973. Almost everytime they did they used what was supposed to be Palestine as a springboard for a surprise attack. The Palestinian leadership complied and aided these attacks and then were left hanging when Israel beat back the other Arab states.

That's why Israel occupied the Sinai (Egypt), the golan heights,(Lebanon) the west bank (Jordan)and Gaza.(Palestine?) That was the reason in the begining that they didn't want to give the land back. They had done so in every war previous and then were attacked again a few years later.

The strategic hardliners in Israel don't want to give the land back because it makes them vulnerable to another sneak attack. The Ultra religious consider all the land holy and want a new kingdom ala david's old testament empire. The settlers cite the above religious reasons and the fact that they have really nice houses there probably has something to do with it as well.

The palestinians are understandably upset that they have lost everything. In 1948 they had a country. Now they are for the most part prisoners in an undeclared war with less rights than most countries. The Israelies keep them locked up, and if the palestinians act up, they usually get shot up. The Israelies get attacked, they suspect it comes from an occupied settlement, they go in with the army and bulldoze the houses of those involved. There aren't trials or proof. In addition keep in mind that the few Palestinians who can cross the border have to speak hebrew not arabic to work at a israeli business. I would rather own my own as well. But the awful truth that seems too awful for the Palestinians to face is their immediate forefathers gambled (four times) their inheritance and lost.

All natural human sympathy for the oppressed (and they are oppressed) aside, the Palestinian leadership brought it on themselves everytime they allowed themselves to be used as a political piece in the richer and more powerful arab nations plan to destroy the newly created Israeli state. 48, 56, 67, 73. These are the numbers that ring in the Palestinian's current misery.

Yes it sucks, hard, there is no future there, no hope. They can't open businesses because they have no money with which to open them. No farms because it's not a Palestinian state from 1948. It's a series of refugee camps and impoverished towns, there is no room and no money to develop the land. There is literally nothing there. They have lost four wars.

As for the DIY spirit, they don't have it. It's not really part of the culture unfortunatly. There's not enough resources there anyway.

So it was their land, but they lost it. Now they want it or a chunk of it back. That's the situation unfortunatly. The Israelis weren't so successful in the beginning. It was less about envy and more about the Palestinians getting used over and over again.

So it's a big screwed up situation. The Israelies have realistic fears about getting attacked, the Palestinians are living like dogs. The only way out is to separate them and rehabilitate Palestinian society. That sort of thing doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's good that you addressed the issue. Sorry about the length.

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jonojacques
2005-08-17 04:15 pm UTC (link)

Couple of minor factual points. The Golan Heights were taken off Syria not Lebanon. And Gaza pre-1967 was just as much the property of "palestine" as the West Bank was i.e. not really at all. Gaza was Egyptian controlled.
Which raises another interesting question...
If Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan and Gaza from Egypt, why do the "palestinians" now have a claim to it...?

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robert_johnson
2005-08-17 11:47 pm UTC (link)

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to validate the existance of a sovereign Palestinian state. The Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world invalidated that in 1948 when they attacked Israel and lost, even if the 1967 war was a pre-emptive strike by Israel.

Thing is, Gaza and the West bank didn't just fill up with Arabs after 1967. Those people are pawns.

I would answer your question by saying that they are there and that the right of self determination is still upheld as the norm. Why do Albanians now control Kosovo, even though it's more Serbian than the rest of Serbia? Because they are there, and they have a right to govern themselves.

I think the solution is more than a little unjust, but the Palestinians have to have their own secure orderly state. More violence will only make the situation worse. The only other solution is to let the Israeli hardliners either kill them all, or make the living conditions there so bad that they either die or are forced to move away and that's not supposed to be the way the world works either.

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One little detail.
(Anonymous)
2005-08-24 10:56 pm UTC (link)

Not to nitpick, but business acumen sure doesn't come from Harvard. Those clowns come out of that cesspool of Kennedy worshippers believing that they're entitled to rule the world, and get a rude awakening when the Real World of Business smacks them upside the head. The canonical example:

Harvard MBA: "Why don't you just hire more programmers and ship the product in a month like I promised without consulting you?"
Engineering Manager: "We aren't building widgets here, asshole."

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	1948 (Anonymous) 2005-08-24 10:59 pm UTC (link)
	Robert, The Palestinians didn't have a country in 1948. They were living in a British "protectorate"; ie, a colony captured from the Ottoman Turks during WW I. "Palestine" was never a country unto itself. (Reply to this)

	maccabee 2005-09-15 10:57 pm UTC (link)
	You're close, Rachel... one thing you're missing (though it actually bolsters your argument): Jews have lived in Israel continuously for the past 3500 years. Yes, there were far fewer of them after the Dispora, but there has ALWAYS been a Jewish presence in Eretz Yisrael since our fathers took the land under the leadership of Joshua. (Reply to this)

The whole Israel thing
(Anonymous)
2005-10-03 11:34 am UTC (link)

Your understanding: 6 (in comparison to those who've studied it), 9 (in comparison to the general public).
My understanding: one better than yours.

What you've left out is that Zionism(the belief that jews should have their own nation-state in Israel) really started in the late 1800s. There have been jews in what is now israel since biblical times but they've been a minority for most of the last 1500 years. Israel has been predominately muslim during this time. The jewish immigration to Israel has been steady from the lat 1800s. They went from a tiny minority to a slight majority in the last 100+ years. Where we disagree is that I think that both groups are at fault. Sure palestine was about worthless 100+ years ago(a desert, poor and almost without government), but it was still home to hundreds of thousands of muslims. And sure the jews worked had and scrapped out a respectable living after immigrating there but that doesn't give them the right to treat the native population of muslims like we treated the native americans in the 17 and 1800's. Personally I'd be pretty pissed off if someone moved it to my house and kicked me and my family out because God told them it was theirs. Where the muslems are wrong is in their means of defiance. Instead of strapping on bombs and blowing up innocent jews they should be practicing non-voilent resistance ala Gandhi. Then they'd get world opinion on their side as well as the secular Israelis. The United States went wrong by getting entangled with this tar baby at all.

drewwill@hotmail.com

(Reply to this)

	Ryan, are yout here? (Anonymous) 2007-01-14 01:47 pm UTC (link)
	Hi Bye (Reply to this)

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